Xbox One chief warns gamers not to expect dramatic improvements from DirectX 12

Xbox One chief warns gamers not to expect dramatic improvements from DirectX 12 | ExtremeTech #colorbox,#cboxOverlay{display:none !important;}#leaderboard .lboard .topad{width:auto;}.article .title h2 ,.article{font-family: Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;}.extreme-share{float:left;margin:0 5px 15px !important;}.tags .taglist li a {font:12px/15px arial !important;}.tags .title {padding:3px 0 0 !important;}.tags li a {display:inline-block !important;}.visual .switcher li {overflow:hidden;line-height:17px;}.etech-newsletter .btn-signup {cursor:pointer;}.etech-newsletter span.message {font-weight:bold;}.article strong {font: 16px/22px ProximaNovaRgBold,arial,sans-serif;}(function(d, s, id) { var js, fjs = d.getElementsByTagName(s)[0]; if (d.getElementById(id)) return; js = d.createElement(s); js.id = id; js.src = "//connect.facebook.net/en_US/all.js#xfbml=1"; fjs.parentNode.insertBefore(js, fjs);}(document, 'script', 'facebook-jssdk')); document.write(unescape("%3Cscript src='" + (document.location.protocol == "https:" ? "https://sb" : "http://b") + ".scorecardresearch.com/beacon.js' %3E%3C/script%3E")); COMSCORE.beacon({ c1:2, c2:6885615, c3:"", c4:"", c5:"", c6:"", c15:"" }); ExtremeTechTop Searches:Windows 8AutosQuantumIntelTrending:LinuxWindows 8NASABatteriesAutomobilesHomeComputingMobileInternetGamingElectronicsExtremeDealsExtremeTechComputingXbox One chief warns gamers not to expect dramatic improvements from DirectX 12Xbox One chief warns gamers not to expect dramatic improvements from DirectX 12By Joel Hruska on June 18, 2014 at 5:05 pmCommentShare This article

When Microsoft announced that the Xbox One would adopt its next-generation API, DirectX 12, it kicked off quite a stir in the gaming community. Low-level APIs that allow developers greater access to underlying hardware have been all the rage this year — AMD has Mantle, the PS4 reportedly has its own low-level API, and now even Apple is getting in on the game. On Monday, Xbox head Phil Spencer appeared to dump cold water on the idea that DX12 would make a major difference for the console, writing: “It will help developers on XBOX One. It’s not going to be a massive change but will unlock more capability for devs.”

He then goes on to clarify that DX12 gives first-party studios the option to take risks and try concepts that other companies might not be interested in using or willing to take risks on. In many circles, this is being interpreted as a tacit admission that DX12 probably won’t improve the Xbone’s performance much — but Spencer isn’t weaseling here, and he’s not selling a bill of goods.

On developers and budgets

When game developers sit down to design a title, they have to work within a console’s available resources or frame budget. Every object or effect within a frame of animation consumes GPU time and rendering power. Different GPUs have different budgets and strengths — an effect that an AMD GPU can render in 0.05ms may take 0.2ms on an Nvidia GPU — or vice versa. Sophisticated analysis tools from AMD and Nvidia give developers the ability to peer into their own work frame by frame, item by item, to see where the bottlenecks are and which on-screen actions are consuming the most amount of GPU time .

AMD’s GPU profiler. GPU time per frame is on the far right.

Right now, DirectX 11.2 takes a certain amount of time to fulfill specific tasks. We know that the D3D API is weak in two respects — the number of draw calls it can make and multi-threading support. Given that Mantle and Direct3D 12 appear to attack many of the same problems, we can safely assume that these are issues Microsoft will address as well. But here’s the critical issue — a developer who builds a game with DX11-style assumptions about assets and draw call time may not see a dramatic performance improvement from moving to DX12 — because they’ve already set out to minimize the impact of the logjams that hold DX11 performance back. It may be possible to perform further optimizations to shift workloads in ways the previous API didn’t allow, but in this hypothetical the title is already mostly complete and there’s limited time or budget for such changes.

If, on the other hand, you explicitly design a game to take advantage of the enhanced capabilities DX12 offers, it may open up capabilities that were previously unavailable. We saw evidence of this when we tested Star Swarm — using Mantle gave nearly tripled the game’s frame rate in some instances.

If Spencer’s comments are true, we’re going to see Xbox One developers focusing more on building different experiences rather than simply focusing on higher frame rates. I have no doubt we’ll see some of both, since even in our theoretical examples the DX11 game would benefit to some degree from DX12, but what Spencer seems to be saying is that DX12 games will focus on driving different kinds of game development options. That’s probably the better idea — at the very least, it lends itself more to unique game experiences rather than simply trying to ramp frame rates.

Meanwhile, you can check out Forza 5 running on DirectX 12 below:

Tagged In hardwaresoftwaremicrosoftamdgame consolesxbox onenvidiaeighth generationxboxdevelopersdirectx 11directx 12dx12D3D11D3D12Share This Article .article {margin:0px !important;}.AR_1 {margin :0 0 20px 0 !important;}.AR_2 {margin:0 0 20px 0;} CommentPost a Comment Cookies

Any gain counts, even small ones, in my opinion.

Whether the 30% performance gap between the XBO and the PS4 can be shortened is a different matter, but I’m excited for what both platforms have to give.

With the former getting Halo and the latter getting No Man’s Sky, I’m sure I can wait a year or two to see what the developers can accomplish.

In the meantime, I think I’ll go ahead and pick up a Wii U and start saving (again).

jim moore2

There’s two ways to approach this. You either assume PS4 has already been maximized to the point it can no longer be improved, in which case, any improvement to Xbone is a net gain. But if that’s the case, why not just buy the “finished” product, instead of the one that only offers potential and may/might/possibly catch up some day?

Or you assume both have room to be improved upon performance wise, and every gain MS makes will be countered with similar gains on the other side, sooner or later. In which case, why not buy the product that would seem to have the most future potential?

Performance doesn’t matter to all, but if it matters to a person, I don’t see how MS inching their way closer can be perceived as a significant positive. It’s like me saying, I’m a bit more competitive running against Usain Bolt after practicing sprints for a week. Sure. I’m closer. No where near catching up though.

Mirimon

thing is.. like the last concept of gaining 10% from dropping kinect. adding 10% of the xb1's current power is only a difference of being no less than another 2% less powerful than the ps4. That 30-40-50% gap is now only ~28-38-48% gap. (those are not the true numbers, I know, just don’t feel like including the remainders…). Even if the ps4 were hypothetically maxed out on performance, no amount of coding will make the xb1 ever reach it. It can get close, but, but never on par.

you know, if bolt saw you improving, he likely wouldn’t sit back and welcome you, he would work on beating his own speeds and continue to leave people in the dust.

jim moore2

No, he’d be laughing at my chubby middle-aged white ass huffing and puffing down the track thinking “I’m gaining, I’m gaining!”

Sort of like I think behind closed doors Sony is laughing at MS for playing the performance catch-up game while they are moving the yard sticks in terms of peripherals and ecosystem, with VR and so forth.

If I had no dog in the hunt at all, it would simply be humorous to watch Sony playing rope-a-dope with MS. No matter what MS does, they don’t see the next punch until it’s too late, then they react and get blind sided from the direction they just stopped looking in. Hard to believe they can be this lost in the fight, but they are.

Guest

MS has been behind the game since they got slapped in the supreme court. They missed out on smartphones (now dominated by Samsung and Apple), only managed to piss off their desktop customers with Windows 8, and only managed to piss off console gamers with Xbox One’s early DRM policies.

Cookies

… You’re comparing smartphone numbers to Windows 8?

I wasn’t aware that bikes replaced cars.

ShanieOneillnuc

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Guest

Good job completely missing the point.

A. J.

I think your numbers are off. Let’s assume the worst case scenario and the PS4 has 50% more graphics performance.

Current state:
X1 uses 90% of GPU for graphics. PS4 currently 50% better.

Let’s say the X1 has a graphics rating of 0.9, and the PS4 is 1.35. This gives the PS4 a 50% better rating. 1.35/.9 = 1.5, or 150%

Future state:
X1 uses 100% of GPU for graphics. The math then becomes 1.35/1 = 1.35, or 135%. In this scenario, the graphical difference goes from 50% to 35%.

If we use your best case scenario of 30% better performance, then the numbers change to this:

1.17/0.9 = 1.3, or 130%.
1.17/1 = 1.17, or 117%

In this case, the difference between the consoles goes down from 30% to 17%.

One last thing. It hasn’t been made clear if the X1 would be getting the remaining 10% of resources, or getting 10% more. The difference would be between “0.9 + 0.1 = 1? and “0.9 * 1.1 = .99?. If it is the latter and the the numbers in my above examples would change from 135% to 136.4% and from 117% to 118%.

you know, if bolt saw you improving, he likely wouldn’t sit back and welcome you, he would work on beating his own speeds and continue to leave people in the dust.

That depends. Is Bolt currently handicapping himself in any way? Is he wearing heavy shoes or purposely taking small steps? With the Kinect GPU change, we aren’t talking about making any big leaps in technology. We are just talking about removing something that uses resources. Does the PS4 currently have a major resource hog to remove?

Your example of Bolt is a bit off. If Usain Bolt saw you take off a 20 lbs weight vest and immediately get faster than you currently are, I don’t think there is anything he could do to compare. Bolt would still be faster than you, but you’d have closed the gap a bit in a way that he couldn’t.

GK15

They are also comparing a fat middle aged white man to the fastest human being on the planet. PS4 does have a bigger GPU, but at the end of the day, with all things considered, even the Witcher 3 dev said that PS4 is only slightly more powerful. Rez gate was mostly b/c of the difficult RAM setup on XB1 (which ppl are beginning to work around) and XB1 holding back 10% of it’s GPU.
And I think Phil’s tweet was taken out of context. I think he meant it won’t be a major change for development. I fail to see bow mainly going from one core, to spreading the workload over several cores won’t be a big improvement. Even the article above said that they were able to get triple the frame rates in some circumstances.

Guest

Keep clinging to words like “slightly”, everyone else will keep ignoring the downplaying and buy PS4s.

GK15

I didn’t say it, the Witcher dev did. And I’m not foolish enough to think that my posting that in a comments section is enough to influence peoples buying on a macro level.

jim moore2

You are cherry picking. There’s also a number of devs that claimed the PS4 was as much as 50% more powerful. It’s nice how in the internet age, there’s so much “information” out there we can all choose which to believe as fact.

jim moore2

Who is “they”?!? It was my analogy, and it was as much a joke as serious. What, you didn’t catch the self deprecating humor attached in my response? You guys crack me up, getting all torqued out of shape over a silly analogy.

Mirimon

the percentage would never be of it’s total potential, it would be based on it’s actual performance at present. THAT is why the math goes the other way. MSFT did make a console and then downgrade it, they simply made the console less from the start.

but that is some decent math up there for internet people…
also.. did I ask you before wtf that pic is of… it still disturbs me for some reason..

A. J.

Ha ha ha. It’s more tame than you think. It’s a duck. I did a Google search and found a larger version of it.
http://www.thatcutesite.com/uploads/2010/01/duck_upclose.jpg

I saw the pic one day and it made me chuckle a little. For some reason, that was enough for me to make it my wallpaper and icon in multiple places. Simple minds, simple pleasures I guess.

jim moore2

Not to further cloudify things, but there’s so many percentage figures thrown about, we might be making the mistake of equating things that aren’t direct comparisons. For example, one overly simplistic item compared is the 50% greater CUs on PS4. Xbone reserved 10% of what it had for Kinect. So the 50% difference is before Kinect stole resources.

When Digital Foundry compared the two GPUs and the architectures, they did a hardware comparison and estimated the PS4 was 30% more powerful. I could be mistaken, because it’s been a while since I read that article, but I don’t believe they factored how the system used the resources, therefore 10% being reserved was not modeled. I could be mistaken, but if I’m not, the difference would have been greater than 30% as a result, before MS “improved” things.

Lastly when vendors talk in general “math” terms, I tend to be skeptical since the vaguer the claim, the more liberties they may be taking with it. Math in high tech marketing has really suffered in the last 20 years. You get companies like Cisco double counting bytes passing their backplane to get 2x numbers for “throughput”. It’s very groan worthy. I’m not saying Sony doesn’t play similar games with numbers. They all do. And it’s frustrating, because you can’t trust much you hear any more.

A. J.

Actually, that does make things much more cloudy. And for good reason. You hit the nail right on the head that you can’t trust anything except real world results. Intel, AMD, nVidia, and many others all do the same things. Every year the new processors are something like 20% faster on paper, and then benchmarks come out with 5-15% actual increases in performance.

That’s why even though I’m an Xbox fan, I read all of the DX12 articles pessimistically. It may do wonders, but until I see games for sale that show improvements using it, I’m not going to praise it.

Cookies

Unfortunately, you’re assuming that everybody’s expecting the same thing.

This isn’t PC gaming, these are consoles.

Games exclusive to the XBO are not on the PS4, and vice verse.

Just because Usain Bolt can beat Michael Jordan at running doesn’t mean that Jordan fans will start rooting for Bolt instead.

jim moore2

I think if you read my post, I acknowledged this and I did not “assume” anything about “everyone”:

“Performance doesn’t matter to all, but if it matters to a person…”

In case I need to spell it out (which I guess I do), yes, there are other reasons people pick a console other than raw performance. But since you were talking about performance, and I was talking about performance, why should I even have to anticipate a quick change of subject from you? I actually did anticipate this response, and even having addressed it, you still glossed right over that key phrase as if it wasn’t even there.

Guest

Factual PS4 Hardware Advantages: +6 CUs, +540 GFlops (40% greater) or more, +16 ROPs, +6 ACEs/CQs, better GPGPU support, better performing CPU, faster unified memory, and less OS overhead.

Both Sony and MS have world class coders that will extract every bit of performance out of their consoles with their drivers/APIs/SDKs. The difference is PS4 simply has more powerful hardware to work with, so it will always stay ahead in graphics performance.

Mike McKee

Oh look, it’s ExtremeDerp again. Your endlessly recycled paragraphs are your fingerprint.

Guest

Someone’s asshurt at facts and reality.

jent

I was going to say that. Hey Derp.

LOL

.Factual XtremeDerp (aka ps4lol, GodGamerDerp or Guest) is an idiot internet troll who goes around spreading copy and pasting his Shit PS4 Religion on every article he finds because he loves riding Sony’s D like a Pony.

Guest

Get mental help. It’s not healthy to hate pieces of plastic and people who like playing video games on them.

Some severely mentally ill people are upset at PS4's success and have to spread hate and lies, apparently.

Apparently PS4's stronger hardware, ~3.5 million sales lead, large number of 1st party developers, more games, and more developer support have microsoft fanboys extremely upset, causing them to spread lies and hatred. Thankfully everyone is ignoring these children and buying PS4s like hotcakes anyway.

8+ million PS4s and counting. Nothing you say will stop it, you are helpless. Keep lying and hating while everyone else ignores you.

Guest

Another typical dumb, delusional, malicious, constantly wrong microsoft fanboy that has no clue about technology or sales, just feces flinging and screaming like an imbecile.

Kyle Geoffrey Porter

this performance gap between Xbox one and ps4 isn’t as drastic as everyone’s putting it out to be. Yes there is a difference nd yes we’ll see improvements on the x1 in due time..when developers become comfortable with the xbox one’s architecture and working with ESram..and having the 10% power bump in the GPU from the kinect-less Xbox will deff help and were going to see the performance gap close slowly..don’t kno if its going to catch up completely..but the performance difference wont be enough for a lot of ppl to decide to leave all there friends and buy a console just because its bit more powerful..games are going to look fantastic no matter which platform you go with..the only place it will actually be noticeable is on the spec list.

Elpidoforos Prospathopoylos

No, the difference is there and its still gonna be there. Now it all comes down to what you refer as huge. A higher resolution is huge already

Paddy

I’ve definitely been noticing quite a few more games hitting 1080p and 60fps on the XB1 lately. Maybe I’m wrong, but there are unlikely to be many noticeable differences between the consoles. Perhaps I’m wrong though.

Guest

You’re wrong.

Guest

It seems most people are ignoring attempts to downplay PS4's stronger hardware and buying PS4s anyway.

8+ million and counting.

jent

Whose attempts?

Mirimon

just stop.. no amount of patching will bring the xb1 on par with the ps4, period… THAT is simply a hardware issue. Aside from revising the hardware, or simply coming out with a whole new console, it will remain behind. Furthermore, while the few remaining fanatics out there make such statements as “it will improve over time as things get patched and better optimized, as the developers get used to using the system and its power of the ESRAM, blah blah blah..” while at the same time ignoring the concept that the ps4 won’t ever get patched? it will never get any performance upgrades via better optimization? Developers won’t learn how to squeeze more from it??? You people seem to be stuck in this frame of mind as though the ps4 is as it will always ever be… oh.. an that 32mb of ESRAM…. did you know the ps4 has also another 256mb of ddr3 sitting on the side, usually for back ground operations and such…. can just as easily be used in the same fashion….

now, back to this crazy notion you have that the differences aren’t noticeable. The PS4 will have nearly everything the pc version of a game has, but rather than ultra settings, it’s on high. The XB1 on the other hand, will completely omit some of these effects, and drastically tune down others, less particles, no shadows, etc.. you get the picture. The differences are quite noticeable, not just in a frame, but also in frame rate.

that 10% boost you guys like to talk about?? it brings the xbox one to being only ~28-38-48% less powerful than the ps4….. (if you are confused, I can help.., that 10%, is 10% boost to it’s current performance. If you have a dollar in your pocket, and I have 10 bucks in mine, and you get your money increased by 10% of what you have, you will now have $1.10, not $2 if you thought the gain would be 10% of what I have, while I still have $10. Did you gain more money? sure… but the difference is still pretty big, enjoy that snickers bar, while I get full course meal.

Kyle Geoffrey Porter

look I’m not.fanboy of either..l play both consoles happily..but that 10% you speak of as not being much help at all just bumped up destiny’s resolution on the Xbone to 1080p..so its deff helping more then your implying…if it is only helping in the linear way you described then it wouldn’t of been enough to bump it up to 1080p resolution.. this is deff going to help..not all games on the PS4 have been 1080p..the issues devolpers are having exsist on both consoles..and we’ll see improvements on BOTH consoles.

Guest

If devs claim Destiny is 1080p 30 fps on both, PS4 will probably still have a higher average framerate (less drops), less screen tearing, and better visual effects (AA, shadows, particles, etc.) Digital Foundry will prove it.

Many Xbox One games will still be 900p, lower framerate, less effects, screen tearing, etc.

jent

The PS4 has generally had more issues with screen tearing than the Xbox One. In an all out attempt to get 1080p 60fps to meet the demands of you and others the developers of PS4 games have pushed to far, probably too far for what the hardware can do at this point. That will probably change, but you shouldn’t be using screen tearing as a argument.

Kyle Geoffrey Porter

and this is all coming from someone who thinks the ps3 is more powerful then the Xb1..I guess I kno who the fanboy is in this discussion..you just gave me a true face palm moment when reading that comment lol..keep on touting that Sony fanboy cap…you wear it well.

Johnny McDozens

i dont understand why you use the $1 vs $10 example… its more like $1.50 at most for ps4 and $1 for xbox one. XB1 gains 10% to go to $1.10 making up 20% of the difference between the 2

Mirimon

apparently you don’t understand the conversation, we are talking about things such as potential and theoretical output, the actual processing power of the hardware. Be it FLOPS, framerates, w/e… which is all different from what happens with the games themselves since that is related directly to a developer’s ability to utilize, and optimize for that hardware.

Don’t get mad at me simply because Science says something you don’t believe, the issue is within yourself here.

Kyle Geoffrey Porter

no..actually I have no problem at all..I don’t hold allegiance to a specific box because it’s specs say it can do more..I’m a gamer that plays games I enjoy…that’s one thing I’ll always choose first when it comes down to it..playing games I love and playing those games with my friends is more important then playing on a console that has a better spec sheet.that’s why it is best for me to have both..now you being a sony fanboy seems to be your problem..holding you back from all kinds of great games..but hey that’s your choice.I understand completely what the convo is about..hence what my previous comments..and you can disagree all you want..that’s fine..I really don’t care..I’m just here for an actual discussion..not for fanboys to keep up with the “my console is better then yours” type of conversation..its deff not helping anyone.

Josh101

Thing is, the only people that were touting this as the savior of the XboxOne’s woes are the overly passionate MS fans. No one was saying that DX12 wasn’t going to help the X1, they were saying it’s not going to help much. Which is true. The X1 already has low-level API’s. Software will not make a weaker GPU/CPU combination work better than a more powerful one. If you have two buckets of water, 5 gallon (A.) and a 2 gallon (B.), you will never fit as much water in bucket B. as you will in bucket A. It’s really not a hard concept to understand. But, you will always have those that are willfully ignorant.

jim moore2

No, but just you wait, MS has a 10 gallon bucket hidden away in that beast. It’s a supercomputer just waiting to be unlocked. (tongue in cheek, in case it’s not obvious)

Tom

They do?? I thought they like whole rooms full of buckets online and they were going to connect them via pipework to our Xbones in the future?
That way our virtual buckets just keep getting bigger! The pipe isn’t really going to move water between those buckets very fast but they don’t seem to be talking about that.

Guest

If you said that on misterxmedia’s blog they’d take you seriously.

Cookies

The PS4 is around 30% stronger than the Xbox One.

Not sure why you keep exaggerating the performance difference so much.

Guest

Factual PS4 Hardware Advantages: +6 CUs, +540 GFlops (40% greater) or more, +16 ROPs, +6 ACEs/CQs, better GPGPU support, better performing CPU, faster unified memory, and less OS overhead.

It’s 40% stronger in raw Gflops, plus a bunch of other things like 2x ROPs, better GPGPU, better memory setup, less OS overhead draining resources, etc.

Cookies

That’s not how specs work, unfortunately.

Raw gains have diminishing improvements.

Take this from a PC gamer.

Guest

Doesn’t matter, it’s far more accurate and correct than your vague “30% more powerful” term. You’re calling a factual description “not how it works” when your own term is wrong and baseless.

My PC is probably better than yours and I apparently know more about specs than you.

ewn

That is how specs work. The reason PC games look similar to consoles is because most developers cant be bothered to make a different game. They just make a port.

Elpidoforos Prospathopoylos

LOL no. What diminishing returns?

Mellowade

diminsihing returns meaning.. the xbox current setup is outputting games at on average about 900p 60/30fps… with a 10% increase boost they could achieve 1080p 30fps.. but with ps4s 40% power advantage they can still only output at max 1080p 60fps. the returns for the additional power have diminished significantly. the ps4 has more than enough power for full hd gaming but is by no means a 4k gaming console

Paddy

So in that sense, we’ll be left wanting a completely new gaming system once 4k TV’s come down from their bloated $2000+ price tags (5-6 years?).

Guest

LOL good job proving you have no clue what you’re talking about.

jent

Look up diminishing returns. It’s a proven principal in economics. Don’t be so sure of your position on this one.

jent

I agree. That’s going to be a big deal in the future. The Xbox One will approach 1080p 60fps in time. The PS4 will not be able to do that for 4K, and neither will the Xbox One. At some point diminishing returns will make all this arguing pointless.

Mirimon

there are soo many ways for theoretical performance measuring here.. it’s better to give a broader figure, such as the 30-40-50%, because it all depends on theory for one, and how it’s being applied. But yeah, those are just a few of the reasons it runs better. Other things, such as the fact that the ps4 is actually running at a clock speed of over 2ghz. (which explains partly why it also runs a bit hotter than the xb1.

in the end.. nobody has yet to nail down a pound for pound difference in the specs, what we do see every day though, for lack of an honest benchmarking program, is that multiplat games will have nearly all special effects at low or off for the xb1, while on high and active for the ps4, all while not having bizarre washed out/over saturated images, running higher resolutions, and ranging anywhere from 14-40 more frames per second. The side by side examples of the multiplats stick out like a penis growing from my forehead.

Guest

Their architectures are very close, direct comparisons are valid.

Mirimon

except, when you look at them completely, there are too many variables, hardware wise, let alone the differences in operation. The point is.. the variances are enough that we cannot yet simply state “this product is exactly x% better”.. we can only arrive at the 30-40-50% ranges.

Tom

Yep… Let us agree that this entire thread is a waste of time due to the complexities of the hardware and software involved. No point running around with our thumbs up our bottoms comparing numbers or arguing.

Paddy

I agree. Maybe I missed it, but has Sony even come out with a claim they have a 30% advantage. If they did, seems like they’d get some good PR for being able to make a valid claim. If they haven’t provided any information like that, why are people wasting their time arguing like they know the exact percentage better the PS4 is?

Guest

Anyone with technical knowledge knew PS4's game graphics performance would be better for the entire generation as soon as the specs were official. That was well over a year ago. Apparently it’s taking some people a LONG time to come to terms with reality.

Mirimon

nah, such statements are needed to help wake the fanatics from their self-created nightmares. These people will likely begin to fabricate their own delusional hopes for the product, which will only hurt them that much more when faced with reality.

Also.. the usual phrase for having a thumb up one’s backside is tied into the concept of them sitting around doing nothing else…. running around with such things going on would be disturbing.. and difficult..

LOL

Factual XtremeDerp (aka ps4lol, GodGamerDerp or Guest) is an idiot internet troll who goes around spreading copy and pasting his Shit PS4 Religion on every article he finds because he loves riding Sony’s D like a Pony.

Guest

Get mental help. It’s not healthy to hate pieces of plastic and people who like playing video games on them.

Some severely mentally ill people are upset at PS4's success and have to spread hate and lies, apparently.

Apparently PS4's stronger hardware, ~3.5 million sales lead, large number of 1st party developers, more games, and more developer support have microsoft fanboys extremely upset, causing them to spread lies and hatred. Thankfully everyone is ignoring these children and buying PS4s like hotcakes anyway.

8+ million PS4s and counting. Nothing you say will stop it, you are helpless. Keep lying and hating while everyone else ignores you.

TSD

Don’t forget, he lives at his parents home and can’t hold a job because he’s too busy looking for Xbox fans on the internet.

Guest

You seem asshurt that someone is pointing out facts and reality to dumb, delusional, crazy, hateful, hypocritical microsoft fanboys like misterxmedia’s cult.

jent

Just a question. Why did you change your disqus name?

Josh101

The buckets don’t lie.

Guest

“overly passionate”? More like cult-like ignorance and delusion.

Mellowade

if anyone is exhibiting anything like cult like delusion and devotion its you Mr Derp. Your sony pandering has risen to an almost religious fervour

Tom

SHUT UP XBOX FANBOI, GAWD.
PLAYSTATION 4EVS.

Mellowade

i cant really argue with that.. eloquent and succinct i will as you have instructed shut up now…

Greg

“FANBOI”? “4EVS”? Are you a 12 year old girl? Is it not cool to spell words correctly? Damn kids with your twitter lingo…

Tom

I get the distinct impression you and @Mellowade felt that was a genuine comment.

It’s disturbing that illiteracy and fanboyism are so pervasive that such comments would pass as serious.

Let us both fear for the future of humanity.

Guest

PS4 is outselling Xbox 8 million to 4.5 million yet there’s a disproportionately huge number of bitter microsoft shills on disqus spreading lies and hate about PS4, Sony, and anyone who likes their games. I wonder why that is.

The fact you have to strawman “playstation fanboys” when this article and others are SWARMING with hateful, stupid, feces flinging microsoft shills is very telling.

Greg

My bad. I thought your fanboy type comment was serious.

Guest

PS4 is outselling Xbox 8 million to 4.5 million yet there’s a disproportionately huge number of bitter microsoft shills on disqus spreading lies and hate about PS4, Sony, and anyone who likes their games. I wonder why that is.

The fact you have to strawman “playstation fanboys” when this article and others are SWARMING with hateful, stupid, feces flinging microsoft shills is very telling.

Guest

You seem asshurt that someone is pointing out facts and reality to dumb, delusional, crazy, hateful, hypocritical microsoft fanboys like misterxmedia’s cult.

Tom

It’s all bollocks really though, isn’t it. This whole process that happens every new console generation. Arguments, fact-swapping, number quoting, etc. I mean who gives a crap at the end of the day? They’re games consoles. They play games. Buy whatever you want. Snore.

jent

Your analogy is poor. Software can make a big difference depending on how it is written. Ask any dev who writes code. Can MS pull off a big win with regards to the Xbox One remains to be seen. Playstation developers will not be sitting on their behinds either. They will probably make gains too. I think it is entirely possible for software developers to close a hardware gap. To deny that shows little confidence in their skills. To deny even the possibility of that occurring is remarkably short sighted.

Josh101

Just don’t. The biggest reason why developers wer happy about dx12 is because MS is now acknowledging multicore cpu’s. What everyone has been doing for some time, MS is catching up. So again, don’t.

jent

You are going to have to be more clear. Are you agreeing with me?

Mirimon

we told them this back when they were screaming about the last 2 dx updates… sigh… likely, just as they did then, the xbots won’t believe this one either despite coming from MSFT’s themselves…..and they will only get more butthurt and angry…

Bill E Weaver

look at any side by side screen shot of dx9/10/11, there is always a visual improvement! While not”MASSIVE change” like Phil Spencer said, massive doesn’t mean no change at all.https://www.google.com/search?q=dx9+vs+dx11&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=-Y2iU9WDKrDMsQSTv4LIAQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg&biw=1280&bih=677#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=iLq56vpJltJcyM%253A%3BYk_Znn3LMTv2IM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforums.techguy.org%252Fattachments%252F160994d1260177456%252Fimgname-call_of_juarez_dx9_vs_dx10_shots-callofjuarezdx10ng0-thumb.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforums.techguy.org%252Fgames%252F883457-crysis-dx10-vs-dx9.html%3B450%3B338

Guest

Those “improvements” like Tessellation usually need new hardware and have performance impacts, not boosts.

HazEm MazEn

how pathetic, DX12 was the only hope Xbox fans were counting on make the XB1 run like a next gen console is suppose to. oh well…

Mirimon

no.. they also had hopes for 11, and 11.1, and 11.2.. “tiled resources”, “powa of teh cloudz!”, and “ESRAM!!!!”

Mellowade

who is they? i know a bunch of xbox and ps4 owners and i have heard way more about those things coming from the sony camp. it seems you are more eager to disparage than they are to praise.. why is this? are you not confident in your purchase and its merits. do you feel like putting down the other console makes yours perform better .. like some kind of twisted highlander type scenario..THERE CAN BE ONLY 1!.. is that it?? im not trying to get at you im genuinely curious

HazEm MazEn

@mellowade:disqus yes of course, because sony is the one who spent 30 mins of their reveal talking about the power of the could….hahahaa dude get a life seriously , have u ever heard sony mentioning power of the could or esram or any of that crap ? not even sony fanboys use these terminologies, only desperate xbox one fans do.

Lonny

Well that could be because they don’t have the servers MS does. Get off your fanboy horse both systems are good and have good games coming out. I have both systems and both are great so quit trolling and get back to gaming this article has nothing to do with the PS4.

HazEm MazEn

@disqus_sY6ypo9BDW:disqus thanks for the feedback. now stfu

Lonny

Wow that was predictable from an idiot behind his keyboard. Got news for you, I won’t shut up because you are nobody that matters. You are probably some idiot kid living in mommy’s basement that thinks they are tough because they can act like a butthead on message boards.

HazEm MazEn

@disqus_sY6ypo9BDW:disqus hahahaha oky big boy calm ur tits that was funny dont shut up keep talking for my entertainment

Guest

PS4 is outselling Xbox 8 million to 4.5 million yet there’s a disproportionately huge number of bitter microsoft shills on disqus spreading lies and hate about PS4, Sony, and anyone who likes their games. I wonder why that is.

Disqus is swarming with dumb, hateful, delusional, feces flinging ms fanboys constantly invading disqus and spreading lies, ignorance, and hatred. Like “BANKRUPT!!1?, “DOWNGRADE!!1?, “NOGAMES DELAY INDIESTATION!!1?, “RUNS BETTER ON XBOX!!1? and “SONY LIED!!1?.

Mirimon

it’s pretty clear who “they” is… but.. since it obviously struck a cord with you, you clearly are a fanboy.

if you honestly felt the comment, which noted all the fabulous fictional inventions and hypothetical scenarios that are typically held of those irrationally devoted to the xbox label, was me trying to put people down, then I sense you happen to be one off those people clinging onto a dream. False hope will bring you no good.

Mellowade

who defines what a next gen console is supposed to run like? because in terms of new experiences the xbox has the ps4 beat. the ps4 is effectively a ps3 with more power. next gen seems to be a subjective construct and im assuming in your case its entirely dictated by your allegiance to one brand over another. making you much like the other toxic and devisive fan boys that are gimping the tech industry and standing in the way of true innovation. you should know i own neither console before you begin your unimaginative but still somehwat inevitable ‘fan boy’ themed retort.

HazEm MazEn

@mellowade:disqus lol first of all calm ur tits, ur fanboy-ism is clear throughout ur language. u know what i mean by next gen, (1080p/60fps) is something the ps3/xb360 can do, how would u feel about a console that is suppose to last for 8 years not being able to cover the MINIMUM requirements of a proper game to be played in 2014 ? just like anyone else i really care about gaming, and yes resolution doesnt matter as long as the game is fun bla bla bla am up for it. but everyone knows the MS chose to f**k their gamers when they added all the entertainment functionality the most of it only works in the US and they knew the gameplay will be affected.

Cookies

For goodness sake, there’s a thing called an EDIT BUTTON.

LEARN TO USE IT.

HazEm MazEn

@cookies4you:disqus i know there is and i purposely didnt use it, because guess what, its my account and i comment in the way i find suitable so STFU .

HazEm MazEn

@mellowade:disqus oh and another point, whats next gen about the xbox one ? tv ? it will only work in very few countries it will take ages to even reach outside US. skype and netflix ? almost every single gadget in the house can do that. controller ? its the exact same thing with a D-pad modification and some rumbel in the triggers. whats left ? kinect ? no games are being built for it and even MS decided to screw it be releasing a kinectless xb1. but hey, u can walk up to a room and say xb1 on ! woow, no thank u, i’ll take 1080p/60fps.

HazEm MazEn

@mellowade:disqus and lastly please dont talk about innovation while the xb1 looks like a DVR with a huge power brick yet the ps4 is smaller and even more powerful. the playstation brand has the vita(remote play and other stuff) and playstation’s VR headset (project Morpheus) and playstation tv. a complete ecosystem. now xbox has…….nothing.. and the xb1 has more innovation ? the 60$ playstation camera addon for the ps4 can do more than half the things the xb1 kinect can do… now what ? lool

danatuw

You may not be old enough or intelligent enough to understand but I’ll try. I don’t personally like the X1 design much but one thing I don’t mind is an external power supply. It’s a gaming system I won’t be that angry with a 2? x 3? x 6? box behind my TV. But yeah the PS4 design is nice, calling it “innovation” is extremely questionable though. I’d guess you aren’t the type of person who thought Apple making the iPhone 5 “17% lighter” was innovative in itself. If you say that Kinect is a gimmick then please don’t talk about Vita and their VR attempt. Microsoft has a completely integrated ecosystem, from Xbox Music and Videos to connecting with Windows home network shares, Xbox Smartglass syncing progress with Windows gaming in select cases, TV integration (which is what I was looking forward to most), and it could have had a Steam-like online marketplace complete with the selling of digital rights and lending games to Live friends. It was a combination of horrendous coverage and press work by MS and fanboys like you who cannot understand true “innovation” who ruined this vision. I don’t care which is “better”, but if it’s all about graphics and style I’ll stick with my PC. I want something more for my living room and Xbox One was supposed to provide it. As great as the PS4 is, it’s just a new PS3 without any formidable changes beyond the hardware, which at its price point is not only fair but a great value, though it offers nothing new to the consumer.

jim moore2

Dude, there was no mention EVER of MS creating a marketplace where you could sell digital rights. Now you fanboys are trying to rewrite history. They only proposed to “allowed” you to sell/give a disk based game to another via their system or authorized retailer. This was masterfully parodied by Sony in a short video. And there was no family sharing. That was made up after the fact amid furious backpedaling, and without the key details that it reverts to a commercial after an hour of play.

Spend a bit of time boning up on copyright law and case law surrounding the copyright law, and then get back to us how what MS was doing wasn’t a blatant attempt to control a market the law defends as belonging to the consumer.

It’s people like you who are woefully misinformed. Not people who recognized the thinly veiled attempt to circumvent consumer rights and extract more money out of everybody than anybody dreamed possible. People like you act like the gaming division (clue, there is no separate gaming division) is somehow the only part of MS that’s all about customers and not making trucks of money like the rest of MS.

danatuw

1. I’m not a fan boy, I own neither system though I am interested in both.
2. You being allowed to sell and give disc based games to another via their system/authorized retailer (your words) is exactly what I mean by selling digital rights, thanks. The parody was Sony showing two people handing a game to each other, and yeah it was hilarious. However beyond MS’ stupid idea to limit disc-based sharing, please tell me: Do you still buy PC games on DVD? If so then you are archaic, if not then I’m right and digital is the future. There is no debating it – Steam has already shown it is the best way forward for everyone.
3. Family sharing was one of the first things announced no one but you is rewriting anything. And a commercial per hour for a free game isn’t the worst thing in the world, if that is true (this is the first time I’m hearing about it). If you like it, pay the money so it’s commercial-free.
4. Which market belongs to the consumer? Buying games? Selling games? Trading games? None of those? I agree that putting a limit on disc-based sharing was wrong and very stupid, but I said as much in my original post by saying Microsoft’s press work was responsible for the fail at the unveiling.
5. I’m not woefully misinformed, or misinformed to a notable degree at all. Those “thinly veiled attempt to circumvent consumer rights” is also known as lower prices, more convenience and so on. Again, I agree that there is no excuse for disc-based games.
6. “People like (me) act like the gaming division is somehow the only part of MS that’s all about customers and not making trucks of money like the rest of MS” – uhh here’s a newsflash, all of MS is “about customers” because they sell to those customers. In fact, I would go so far as to say that MS makes trucks of money because they are a company, and that is what companies do, rather than because they hate humanity and attempt to profit from our ailments. If we buy their products, why is it if it isn’t because we want or need them? Should it be free so that one company doesn’t make so much money? Sony has the same goal (to make money), although they have been unsuccessful at making money for the last 10 years or so, which is a shame because they were once a great company. Currently it is only Playstation and their new phones that show how great the company can be but they’ll need a little more to restore themselves.

Guest

Quote the copyright law to me–the part about the rights of distribution. Then tell me you are informed. Until then your wall-of-text is only fog tactic to cover your lack of intelligence and knowledge.

I won’t bother to correct the misinformation scattered throughout your other “5 points” until you can be bothered to inform yourself on your own rights.

Oh, and BTW, MS has historically made most of their money selling to businesses and through businesses (PC makers), not direct to consumers. Your final blurb in that wall of text betrays your ignorance about the company which we are discussing. Fact…I’ve worked there before. I know. lol

danatuw

oh wow okay. Copyright laws depend on the country and we’re likely in different countries but if you want to explain the copyright laws from your country I’d be happy to learn in order to solve my apparent lack of intelligence. You don’t need to work at Microsoft to know that Office and Windows are installed on billions of computers. There is a thought process on the part of the consumer that goes into purchasing one of these products. They make most of their money from B2B because those businesses want to give their customers what they want, which was Windows for a long time.

Guest

No, read up on industry articles around “consumerization of IT” and “bring your own device”. When you finish educating yourself on history, you’ll realize that in the IT industry, IT departments historically did NOT run polls on what everyone wanted and then supply that product. Get a clue.

They supplied the product they chose in the IT department using whatever criteria was important at the time. A big reason was “standardization” since if Barbara wrote a memo on Word Perfect and Bob wanted to edit it with MS Word, it either worked poorly or the IT department had to manage conversions or app connectors. And if Bob forwarded to another company, it was important for that other company to be able to open and read the doc. MS successfully sold millions of licenses to IT people, not to workers at those companies. MS further knew that if people could be forced to use Office at work those people would likely buy if for their home computer as well since they could take work home and telecommute. It was a master strategy and it worked. They vanquished many better products (products that were FAR more SUCCESSFUL in the consumer space before MS painted a target on them) along the way, simply by wedging their way in through businesses and distributors and forcing out competition when and where possible.

Recently the Consumerization of IT trend has reversed the power structure in companies, forcing IT departments to support iPads, iPhones, Android tablets, etc, etc coming into companies. No longer do they dictate from the ivory tower what people will use, and ironically people are making different choices in which devices and tools they use. But you know all this, because you are edumacated, lol.

Look at any market MS plays in that is dictated entirely by consumers. Smart phones for example. If according to you, which you clearly implied, people just like windows better, then the Windows Phone 8 would absolutely be crushing Apple and Google right now. Absolutely dominating. Why would all those consumers who demanded Windows on their office PC all these years (according to you) want something other than Windows?? It makes no sense.

I’m not sure what kind of weed you are smoking that makes you think consumers have been demanding MS products at work all these years, but kindly share some of that sir.

Oh, and copyright laws are very similar in Europe too and most civilized countries, so unless you are saying you live in China or Ivory Coast, your laws would essentially uphold the same principles as my laws. And since MS operates in the US, they can’t pretend to ignore they were trying to trample US copyright law. Anyway, you artfully dodged. I’m calling you to answer. What are the laws regarding consumer rights to “distribution”, meaning copies of media they have bought. Tell me Europe’s laws or whatever back country you live in. Then we can compare.

Guest

The tone and tenor is to match your provocative tone and tenor. So if you don’t like being called dumb and uneducated and having it be proved through dissertations on industry trends you had no idea existed until you opened yourself up to hearing about them for the first time, then don’t start in calling others too young or not smart.

danatuw

I know Microsoft’s history. At a certain point, people were CHOOSING to use Windows at home regardless of how many euphemisms you use. They could have switched to free Linux when first given the chance – many people predicted this would happen and yet it still hasn’t and seemingly will not happen. There were lineups around street corners for Windows 95 and people still live and die by XP. Don’t tell me they aren’t choosing the best product available to them (in their opinions), the fact that they got popular through businesses doesn’t matter if people will choose to use it at home over other alternatives. Likewise with people today. You can’t compare Android to WP because until recently, one was free and the other cost money. And WP is older than iOS. That being said, a notable percent of society does seem to choose WP over the other platforms so some people truly do believe that it is the best product for them. They uneducated too? At this point any word processor can work with another, but when I walk through the library at school I see people typing on Word; entering data into Excel. Teachers use Powerpoint and so on. Whether you like it or not, there are plenty of people who choose to use MS products (even if they are not the best). They probably can’t recite the countless pages of copyright law that exist. I’m from Canada, and no I do not know the copyright laws in detail. Ultimately, I would imagine that if MS made a digital game distribution method they would comply with those laws and I don’t see how my inability to memorize these laws and my unwillingness to search and find the information relates at all to a great plan that was proposed in a horrible way and died an unfortunate death.

Guest

“At a certain point, people were CHOOSING to use Windows at home
regardless of how many euphemisms you use. They could have switched to
free Linux when first given the chance”

You honestly expect me to take you seriously when you make statements like this?

How many choices for buying a PC with another OS pre-installed existed? You go to any outlet for PCs, and you only see “Windows”. It was never for lack of other PC OSes existing. Surely you cannot deny this. Most people don’t want to relearn an OS to switch to Linux, or be bothered to switch. They got the PC it already has Windows on it, so they stick with it. MS knew that. Any brainless twit knows that MOST PEOPLE, aren’t techies who want to fiddle with new OS and will just continue to use what they are comfortable with. It’s partially why people become brand loyal in the first place. It’s why people continue to use Office regardless of other free or better options. Office also came pre-installed on may home computers. Not because MS was generous, but because they know human behavior. Path of least resistance and all that.

Touching on a couple other points, because I could destroy your entire post sentence by sentence if I wanted… Yes, I can compare Android to WP. Consumers buy a phone with an OS already installed. Your statement is laughable. I don’t go buy a phone and then buy “WP” on top of that, lol. Silly. You act like people make this researched, thoughtful purchase of a PC OS separate from the HW, but then pretend people were duped into buying an Android phone because WP “costs money” and Android was free. It’s honestly hard to take anything you say seriously. It really is. And I’m trying. Honestly trying, lol. Here’s a clue. Since MS bough Nokia, putting WP on Nokia phones is also “free” yet only a tiny percentage of people buy it. Why? According to you, when given the choice, consumers just love Windows. Why not choose a windows phone?? You can’t answer it, and I’ve asked this at least twice now. Please tell me. PLEASE! lol.

“Ultimately, I would imagine that if MS made a digital game distribution method they would comply with those laws”

Your faith in MS is clearly greater than mine. Maybe YOU are too young to recall all the courts MS was dragged into over the Internet Explorer fiasco, not to mention fines levied in US and EU, since many courts did find them in violation of a number of laws. History is not on your side there, my friend. It’s really not. For someone who pretends to be objective, you sure overlook a lot of details regarding this subject.

danatuw

The question is why would PC makers not preinstall other OS? Because people wouldn’t buy them. I’m not being facetious at all you just argue technicalities. People will not install their own system but if Windows was so shit the OEMs would do it for them. Office only comes preinstalled on Microsoft branded hardware I believe. Other than that it comes installed but unless you’re willing to buy a 365 subscription it won’t do anything. I can’t understand the argument you’re making in your second paragraph but like I said, say if only 3% CHOOSE WP (which I believe it is higher but regardless) and there are a billion smartphones, how many people chose WP? I never said anyone was duped into buying Android, but there were thousands more HARDWARE MAKERS than there were for WP. So if I go to the store and there are 15 Android sets and 1 WP, chances are I’ll find one of those 15 Android sets to fit my preference rather than the 1 WP. See what I mean? It’s not that hard to understand and it is perfectly logical. Linux is free to use and any PC manufacturer could have preinstalled it and undercut the competition, but they never did. Or maybe they did but it never took off. Why? Because people wanted Windows. It’s not faith in MS it’s just logic – companies make what people want, because people buy what they want. OEMs made Windows PCs, not the cheaper Linux alternative, because that is what people wanted. You might hate Microsoft, and perhaps you might be right, but still doesn’t change the fact that people buy the best product available to them and for a long time that was MS and some still think it is.

Guest

The question is why would PC makers not preinstall other OS? Because
people wouldn’t buy them. I’m not being facetious at all you just argue
technicalities. People will not install their own system but if Windows
was so shit the OEMs would do it for them

You really do have a weird way of looking at things. Do you know any of the history in how MS dealt with OEMs? It’s important to know if you are going to talk about this topic! Part of the answer to your question is also timing. Linux came along [as a viable contender] way after MS had sealed up the PC market with Windows.

I could be glib and answer your question with your own words:

I never said anyone was duped into buying Android, but there were
thousands more HARDWARE MAKERS than there were for WP. So if I go to the
store and there are 15 Android sets and 1 WP, chances are I’ll find one
of those 15 Android sets to fit my preference rather than the 1 WP. See
what I mean?

Just replace Android with Windows 95….

You also ignore that OEMs will also prefer the easier to install. MS did focus a lot of time and effort into making it easy to mass install a particular copy of Windows with pre-set settings. It is largely why IT shops preferred it (and still do) on corporate desktops and why OEMs preferred it (and still do) on the products they sell. Who wants to hire a bunch of extra people to click through Linux setup when you can click one button to install Windows on thousands of laptops and PCs.

The free nature of Linux is also it’s achilles heel in the PC market which is constantly bringing out new hardware. MS can afford to pay people to build OS support for new hardware, and tools for hardware developers to build drivers. Most of the time the driver on Linux only comes when an enthusiast takes the time to write one, possibly years later.

Surely you can acknowledge there’s a lot more here to the OEM question than just “they are giving the people what the people want…” you acknowledge this when discussing Android but pretend to ignore when it comes to the history of Windows.

You also ignore the fact that software has always been behind on Linux. There’s no consumer love affair with Windows. People buy what options exist, and what they are comfortable with. You aren’t going to go buy Linux “just cuz” knowing hardly any games are ported to it, hardly any productivity software you are familiar with runs on it. It’s all inertia and momentum at that point. MS built it up when there were no viable consumer choices, and they maintain it today. Most of this was back room B2B deals with IT and OEMs. Not giving the people what they prefer.

danatuw

If MS dealt horribly with OEMs it would only create a greater motivation to go it themselves. Samsung seems to be priming themselves to do something like this to Google and Android. The second time you quoted me it is out of context. That was a response to you saying people do not choose Android because it is free. No, OEMs choose it because it is free and open, giving them control and freedom from a powerful partner like MS and they can differentiate themselves. I know it isn’t even close to black and white but if Windows was that bad another company would have stolen the market. People choose it because that’s what the OEMs give them (which is exactly the argument you’ve been making the whole time) and it is a cycle. OEMs make a good product, people want it, they buy it, more are made. If, at any point, a good or even good enough contender to Windows or Office ever popped up it would steal away some of the market. I will not argue with your assertion that they reached the consumers through businesses’ IT departments but eventually they gave consumers what they needed to do their work and that is why the people bought their product. I’m not saying there’s a “love affair” but rather that people buy it because they want and need it. No emotional attachment, just utilitarianism – had there been a good alternative they would have bought it, but MS was the “best” (it is subjective of course) product and won over the market. Either way we are arguing history, which as they say, is history. You think Microsoft is an immoral company (which is fair) and I just think they are a company like any other that makes products for money and because of that they will always try to do their best for the customer. The difference in how we view the company causes us to see their history in a different light, but I hold on to the argument that MS definitely does care about their customers in the consumer segment.

danatuw

I understand with MS it’s cloudy and not so easily categorized due to timing, aggressive business practices and the state of the industry but the changes to Windows 8 thus far prove that MS does care about their consumers and IMO, they always have they just had to carefully toe the line of being anti-competitive (like bundling IE and WMP – a benefit for the consumer) and not coherent enough (common complaint about the ‘ecosystem’). I think MS did what they could and that is where we disagree I guess.

Guest

I never said that MS never listened to customers at all. When they are forced to do so, they do. Windows 8 had so much backlash, they had to do something. They still haven’t released an actual “Start Menu” though. They have a button that takes you to tile screen, lol.

Most of Windows is just imitated from something else that’s been popular with consumers anyway. So it’s not hard to figure out what consumers want. They do just enough to not prompt outright revolt. And when they screw up, they come out with a shorter development cycle OS that brings back what people like…of course for another charge. In fact, I’d say their screw ups benefit them more than their successes, since they often sell the fix to the problem.

jim moore2

You speak of logic, but the problem is, your entire position is not logically consistent. I know it’s tough in the thick of an argument, to not realize when you are better for retreating to higher ground vs contesting every point, but you are not doing yourself a good service here.

Let me simplify your two contradictory positions. You first say the PC market is a pull market. Consumers want Windows, so PC manufacturers just give them what they want.

Then you say the Smartphone is a push market. Consumers only choose Android because that’s all they have to choose from and the manufacturers made the choice of OS for them.

Its entirely logically inconsistent. Even if you focus in on your PC argument it’s logically inconsistent. Even the biggest MS PC OS fan has to admit MS has had some horrible releases, that consumers didn’t like. And yet even the unpopular ones had a time were when you went into a PC store “that” is all you had to choose from other than a Mac. Vista, WinME, Windows 8. All unpopular and yet the only choice at one time. So it contradicts your argument that consumers are pulling manufacturers to give them the latest Windows. No. It’s never been about consumers just waiting on the next OS from Redmond. It’s about the deals MS made with OEMs.

At every turn, you contradict yourself. First you say that cell phone manufacturers chose Android because it was free. But Linux is free too, and that didn’t happen with PC. You do recall that Windows Mobile has been failing for generations. Linux has never had “a company” to promote it on PC. Redhat is the closest thing, but they never had the position to make the deals with PC OEMs. Google on the other hand did to MS what MS did to IBM. They did the deals to get the contracts with the manufacturers. But the question still stands, if people want Windows, and the manufacturers just give customers what they “want” why don’t the manufacturers give people 15 Windows Phones? Surely a consumer oriented market like cell phones would quickly give people what they really want, because if people really want Windows, they will buy a Windows Phone.

You simply can’t overlay your responses about smart phones to PCs without sounding horribly contradictory. You are shifting the goal posts, and you know it. Or if you don’t know it, then I’m giving you a lot more credit than you deserve.

Oh, and it seems you misconstrued my comment about MS doing deals with OEMs to mean they were bad to OEMs. Of course MS was GREAT to the OEMs (as long as they didn’t try anything funny). Do you actually know what the OEM paid for the copy of Windows they put on the PC they sold? I’m guessing probably not. You really do sound like you are guessing your way through this discussion, not actually having any first hand knowledge. They charged peanuts. It’s doesn’t take a genius to see that a if you have a low cost, easy to install OS, one that you get support for from MS, vs a free, non-supported, difficult to install OS, it’s no question which you will choose.

If you find all this hard to believe, you might find this article enlightening:
http://web.archive.org/web/20011217163222/http://www.byte.com/documents/s=1115/byt20010824s0001/

…But of the four, only Hitachi actually shipped a machine with BeOS pre-installed. The rest apparently backed off after a closer reading of the fine print in their Microsoft Windows License agreements.

Apparently, Hitachi received a little visit from Microsoft just before shipping the Flora Prius, and were reminded of the terms of the license.

More specifically, in the “Windows License” agreed to by hardware vendors who want to include Windows on the computers they sell. This is not the license you pretend to read and click “I Accept” when installing Windows. This license is not available online. This is a confidential license, seen only by Microsoft and computer vendors. You and I can’t read the license because Microsoft classifies it as a “trade secret.” The license specifies that any machine which includes a Microsoft operating system must not also offer a nonMicrosoft operating system as a boot option. In other words, a computer that offers to boot into Windows upon startup cannot also offer
to boot into BeOS or Linux. The hardware vendor does not get to choose which OSes to install on the machines they sell — Microsoft does.

If consumers drove the PC market out of demand for Windows, why would MS go to such lengths to control and dictate to OEMs what they can and can’t do?

You seem to pretend that none of this happens long before the product appears in front of consumers. I’m simply of the position that it does, and MS has always, ironically, done best to the point of near monopoly in those exact environments, where the channel to market was controlled by MS. Ironically, they also do much more poorly when they can’t control the OEM market. Zune…. Google played a page out of MS’s book and were able to effectively shut them out with manufacturers. But MS was also late with Windows Phone 8, or else Google wouldn’t have even had the opportunity to do so.

Guest

Consumers don’t want 24 hour DRM check-ins. Cry and spin about it all you want.

danatuw

That’s completely fine I’d have to agree with you judging by the numbers, but a new GPU is not innovation that’s all I’m saying.

Guest

PS4 has many innovations and improvements from PS3 not just “a new GPU”.

HazEm MazEn

@danatuw:disqus dude listen to urself, ur calling movies, music, xbox smartglass (which is just an app on a smartphone) innovation and then ur saying ur not a fanboy giveme a break. i have news for u, Sony has more entertainment content than MS, if ur intelligent or old enough u would know. there’s music, movie store on the PS4 , there is PS+ which gives way better free games and there is also a playstation app on smartphones that acts exactly like xbox smart glass. the ONLY thing xbox has a lead on playstation is kinect thats all. so please dont embarrass urself and dont waste my time replying to u.

Guest

Keep crying about “innovation” and “bu bu bu just buy a PC!”, PS4 will keep selling like hotcakes.

danatuw

This is what you fail to understand though – I don’t care which one sells. Actually I do, because I want Playstation to bring Sony back to life. Just because I appreciate what one can bring doesn’t mean that sales numbers for the other product are going to hurt my feelings or something. That’s what I get for trying to speak rationally on a tech website

Guest

LOL you’re trying to argue Xbox is “better” and nobody (but other microsoft shills) cares, they’re going to keep buying PS4s.

danatuw

I just re-read my post to see if that’s what I said and in fact what I stated was, “I don’t care which is ‘better’ but if it’s all about graphics I’ll stick with my PC. I want something more for my living room and Xbox One was supposed to provide it”. That is what I said and that’s how I feel. Yes I know the PS4 is more powerful and cheaper and I don’t doubt that the games will be better, they have to be. It’s not the point though

HazEm MazEn

@danatuw:disqus “Thats what i get for trying to speak rationally on a tech website” …….. this is ur comment 5 mins ago: (((“making you much like the other toxic and devisive fan boys that are gimping the tech industry and standing in the way of true innovation. you should know i own neither console before you begin your unimaginative but still somehwat inevitable ‘fan boy’ themed retort.”))) thats what i hate about u xbox fans, u start with a strong tone and then when ur defeated by the facts u go like ” ohh but we are all gamers i dont care this is what i get waaaaaa waaaaaa” learn to state ur opinions in a good manner then u wont get hate.

danatuw

My strong tone was because you write intentionally provocative things with a typing style that combined, suggest you are young and dumb. Sorry for jumping to conclusions but my comment was a direct retort to you saying that Xbox has no ecosystem. That is literally all I said, go back and read the damn thing over again.

HazEm MazEn

@danatuw:disqus No. i wasnt talking to u, i was replying to someone else on the thread and u came in replied to me the first sentence was : “You may not be old enough or intelligent enough to understand but I’ll try. ” that clearly shows that ur annoyed because someone is saying something bad about ur precious under powered xbox one. i dont know u and i will never meet u in real life this is just the internet we are expressing our opinions its all good but ur language clearly states ur ignorance so am not gonna bother replying to u anymore

jim moore2

Yeah, but the thing the Xbots do these days to try to garner credibility is to pretend to be “PC” or “Nintendo” and then go on to spout the MS talking points. Innovation this, experiences that…. You do sound like one of those people.

I watched the initial Xbone reveal actually hoping to want one. I left the reveal thinking this is a turd, not innovative, and it’s anti-consumer, riddled with restrictive DRM. I left hating it.

Somehow you saw the same presentation and thought “this is great”. Maybe your honest opinion. I dunno.

MS dressed it all up, but I looked past the clothes at the core features. For example, TV. For all the hype, all it is is HDMI pass through and a front end control system. There’s a tiny bit of wow factor, talking to your TV, but nothing I found truly useful or innovative. I realized quickly MS wasn’t offering DVR for TV, meaning I still have to have a set top box to record. I also know enough about the encryption system to know that MS will never be able to offer recording on the HDMI input (not content that matters anyway). So without any record capability, they haven’t become “the one” in my living room. And while the gestures and voice are neat for being able to tell your Xbox to tell your DVR (via IR blaster) to “record” this or that, at the end of the day, talking to my DVR was never a missing part of my life. Even if “snap” is cool, I know I’m never going to try to watch live TV and play a game at the same time. I bought a big screen TV so I could play a game or watch a show on all of it, not a shrunk down portion of the screen. And PIP has been around for ages and can do the same thing.

A better more accurate Kinect… I was hoping Kinect would go away rather than see MS double down on it. Surely even you would agree that refining Kinect isn’t innovation. You yourself said a bigger faster console isn’t innovation. So by your own categorization, you should agree Kinect 2.0 wasn’t innovation.

So no, I never saw the system as innovative. I actually saw it as pretty unimaginative and deaf to what most gamers wanted.

danatuw

Your opinion makes perfect sense but is different than mine. I don’t have a DVR, nor will I be getting one, nor do I even watch TV a lot. But I absolutely hate cable boxes because they’re slow and the UI is awful (on Rogers in Canada) and that alone is reason enough for me to want something like the X1. For you, it won’t cut it; for me it (should have been but they don’t support Canada) perfect. I felt that the IDEA of what MS wanted to do was innovative, but I turned off the stream of the event thinking something along the same lines as you. Excitement in some areas, but anti-consumer (made everyone feel like thieves with DRM stuff) and downright stupidity in many cases. But I truly believe that the problem was in how they presented it and some of the other trivial hindrances like no disc sharing or the 24 hour check up idea. No excuse for that they could have done it differently. In terms of the talking to my TV, anything that can get rid of a remote is great in my opinion. Some thought it was a gimmick, I personally thought it would be a great feature. Kinect 2.0 in itself wasn’t innovative at all; improved of course but the idea stayed the same. What was innovative (though not opinion changing or “killer feature” type thing) was the TV controlling gestures and statements. As I said with the previous point, many see it as a gimmick but I was asking for something similar to that long before the X1 was announced. I’m playing devil’s advocate in this forum because everyone constantly makes fun of the X1 hardware but honestly to me I would rather both companies wait another year or two and actually release something that will change gaming, not moderately improve it to the level of solid PC gaming (or in Xbox’s case, not even). The hardware limitations I could get over because I’d just play a cross-platform game on PC, but a lack of new additions to me doesn’t make either of these systems stand out. Obviously in terms of bang for the buck there’s no way the Xbox can challenge PS4 but that was never my point. All I was doing was pointing out the difficulty in defining “innovation” because MS had the potential to innovate, but then blew the ideas and then blew the presentation of the already flawed ideas. PS4 played it safe and focused its resources and has benefited from that. However, that is not what I personally wanted.

Guest

I think that the reason people (now) make fun of the Xbone hardware is because TODAY, all the other features, even Kinect, have been abandoned by MS. So all you have left to compare is the performance difference and a few exclusives. Even MS has ditched the XBL policies that provided interesting fodder for trolling.

I do believe in many ways it was a mistake for MS to make some of these reversals (not all, some needed to be made), because they’ve just played into the hands of Sony. There was a time when Cisco had serious competition from other router vendors, and many will tell you that [part of] what “killed” Wellfleet was deciding to copy IOS. It put them in a subservient roll of follower, and Cisco made a killing off telling customers they could buy from the leader or the follower. Most people will choose an industry “leader” if all else is the same. I think MS has sealed their position as a follower this gen, in the perception of the gaming community.

danatuw

Yeah I agree and I too will join in on making fun of Xbox for that. I’ve never seen such a stark reversal. I’m just a little disappointed that their abilities are too similar to last-gen. With the Xbox though, they offered nothing new, and no justifiable reason to compare the two and choose theirs. I will never get into an argument about which is better but I thought that the Xbox had a lot of potential to be solid all-around.

Mirimon

your reason for an xb1 is tv? 1. it likely wouldn’t work in your area in the first place
2. it introduces a ton of lag (the passthrough does).. you claim to hate something because it’s slow.. but want to get something that would make it slow??? fyi.. to use tv on xb1 you still need that cable box…

you would look less like a posing shill if you took that xbox logo branded on your forehead off.

Guest

Yup. IR blasters are also culprits of extra delay. Anyone who has ever used a TiVo or similar front end knows this. Even if the selection process on the front end is instantaneous, you wait while that is translated to simulated button presses via the IR blaster to the set top box. So you might say “Watch CNN” then watch while “101? is typed into the set top UI, then wait while the set top changes channel, and wait while the set top decoding syncs up with the TV signal to render a picture. It’s like swapping a steering wheel on a slow car. Doesn’t make it a bit faster.

Guest

LOL “true innovation” someone is drinking the microsoft kool-aid.

Let me guess you rabidly hate anyone who doesn’t like the Windows 8 start screen.

Mirimon

lawl!!!.. xbot much?

Paddy

Um, how many 360 games hit 1080p and 60fps? The XB1 has been lagging, but they are starting to announce a good number of games that will achieve that. I’d say that’s next gen.

HazEm MazEn

@disqus_2XzAk7Wh1z:disqus the only game that is proven to run on xb1 1080p/60fps is forza because its a racing game therefore its easy. even planets vs zombies was 900p on the xb1 for god’s sake, and no, no announced games at E3 clearly stated they will hit 1080p, even if they magically did it would be 30 fps.

Paddy

Assassin’s Creed, upcoming Battlefield, Wolfenstein, upcoming Halo, Destiny (but 30fps). COD, etc. Perhaps I’m missing something, but there appears to be more upcoming games hitting that mark than several months ago when it was essentially 0.

HazEm MazEn

@paddy these games are TARGETING 1080/60 but no real proof yet. even if they achieved 1080 i dont think they will reach 60fpt unless they reduced the resolution and then upscale it. but hey time will tell.

Guest

LOL you’re making things up.

Wolfenstein lowers res to 960×1080 to keep 60 fps, it’s often NOT full HD.

Mirimon

er.. you are way off base here.. and that gap, hasn’t actually started to close yet, if at all. Why do people seem to be under the impression that the xb1 is the only piece of hardware on the market capable of being improved or see optimization?

jim moore2

1080p isn’t an impressive achievement if you have to cut corners to get there. Everyone seems to oversimplify the situation. Taking an extreme example, if I put a simple sprite on a white background, it’s easy to have 1080p/60fps. If I take a game like Wolfenstein 3D and update it to run in 1080p, it would be easy to achieve 60fps. Because it was “blocky” and simple. If you deliberately scale down the polygon count and textures and particles, and other effects, it’s easy to get to 1080p. So for MS to come out with a smattering of first party titles that turns the details down in order to please people like you with the promise of 1080p/60fps, if that makes you happy, great… the rest of us aren’t fooled. It’s the multiplats that tell the real story. When you can run it side by side and see the difference, you can’t plead ignorant anymore. Games like Forza are simple compared to other games because the far away objects aren’t rendered in great detail, and the closer objects are deliberately made to be blurry (think lower res textures) to create the feeling of speed. It’s not that taxing compared to other games.

Guest

No, there are almost no 1080p 60 fps games on Xbox One. Just indie and sports games that don’t push the hardware.

HazEm MazEn

very true

Paddy

I’ll take their word for it at the time being as opposed to yours…

http://www.totalxbox.com/78255/battlefield-hardline-will-run-at-1080p-60-frames-per-second-on-xbox-one-says-visceral/

Guest

WRONG

That is a complete BS article.

Keep dreaming.

Paddy

I know you have some kind of vendetta against the XB1, but there are about 100 other articles saying the same thing. If it’s all BS, then send me a reputable article stating the contrary. Until then, I’ll assume it’s correct until the publishers come out and say they can’t for x and x reasons. COD is going to be 1080 and 60fps as well. Halo will be too. And Assassins Creed says it is going for that as well. Show me the sources saying it won’t and I’ll gladly move on.

And Destiny is supposedly going to be 1080p and 30fps on both consoles.

Paddy

Battlefield is essentially confirmed if you just do a google search. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again, until these consoles age a bit and until more gamers get away from PS3 and 360 to justify it, these consoles will take a little time to stretch their legs.

PS4 is more powerful, but the XB1 is more than capable in meeting 1080p and 60fps.

Guest

No it is not confirmed.

No it is not “more than capable in meeting 1080p and 60fps” on anything but indie and sports games.

Mirimon

the number of native 1080p games for the 360 is small.. really small, out of all that time on the market with a decently sized library, only 6 titles on the 360 are native 1080p. Both consoles have fewer native HD games than sub 1080p titles, but this is another case where ps3 simply has much more. Ps3, since launch, has a total of 53 NATIVE 1080p titles.

There is also the difference in hardware, the xbox360 has an integrated bit of upscaling hardware, regardless of native image the 360 will upscale and send it out in 1080p with artifacting. The ps3 though does not have this, and so resolution support for ps3 titles must be provided by the developers on the software side ()this does not include ps1/2 titles being ran on the fatboy ps3, which did use hardware upscaling).

timur

I think extremetech.com like PS4 much more than the Xbox one. That is the reason they keep referring X1 as Xbone. I saw that in many articles as above.

“He then goes on to clarify that DX12 gives first-party studios the option to take risks and try concepts that other companies might not be interested in using or willing to take risks on. In many circles, this is being interpreted as a tacit admission that DX12 probably won’t improve the Xbone’s performance much — but Spencer isn’t weaseling here, and he’s not selling a bill of goods.”

Cookies

ExtremeTech is definitely biased towards Sony. Hell, they stated that Sony won E3, despite the fact that most of their games were multi-plat and the XBO had more exclusives.

Horus Shepard

Huh? Might want to do that math again buddy. Microsoft showed off more multiplats than Sony. Do I have to post the lists for you?

Mirimon

actually…. while MSFT showed off more multiplats than exclusives for their console, it showed off significantly less multiplats than Sony did (btw, I am speaking not only about the day one presentations of E3, but in the booths for that week).

MSFT showed 19 indie total, out of 67 titles. Almost 1/3 of their games….
Vs 38 indies for ps4….

MSFT showed 7 actual exclusives,
out of 67 total games vs ps4’s 34 exclusives.

67 titles total, vs. 91 for ps4.

Mirimon

try reading articles on 7th gen.. if you don’t come away saying ET is extremely biased in favor of MSFT I would be gobsmacked.

Samuel Daoust-Ratelle

Spot on. I think all three manufacturers have their flaws and merits, but this site is clearly slanted towards Sony and biased against Microsoft.

Guest

He’s making note of the massive amount of PR bull being crapped out by MS during its early reveal. Spencer isn’t pushing as much BS.

malik

U guys r caught up with numbers and its messing with your minds!?!! 1080p 60fps is the mark and both PC consoles haven’t quite gripped completely,but will! What ever tiny edge that Sony’s console has at the moment,will not be seen when the mark has been made!! Even if u go get your vision optimised, lol!

Guest

LOL no not happening.

Paul from Boston

Ok so what he is saying is any game made with DX11+ is kind of locked in and tweaked out but if the same game was made with DX12 it would be way better, so we have to wait for devs to just switch using DX11 to 12 or patch any game they made with 11 to run better on 12…The title is misleading it should say games already made wont be that much better but the new ones will !!!!!!

Guest

Keep dreaming.

Mirimon

er.. that’s not what is being said here at all….

toddraynerart

You know what I find funny as hell? The fact that “we gamers” I use that term lightly, bitch and complain about this spec or that spec, 1080p 60FPS right? What is next gen? I mean we all do. The kicker is that tv networks don’t give a $h!t about video standards. I just bought (I know I’m late to that game) a 55in. 1080 tv, and it’s pretty damn good. I noticed it scans the signal and will display what is being broadcasted. Some channels are 720 while others are 1080i. What a joke. If the networks can’t even broadcast an uncompressed 1080p signal why do we expect our gaming rigs be any different. IMO. I mean, I love my PS4, clean smooth UI and some fun games that my kids and I enjoy. Sure it’s a little weak on exclusives right now, but they’ll come. Not a huge fan of X-Box one, yet. Maybe I’ll come around, maybe I won’t. I do want some of those games to come to PS4. i.e. Killer Instinct, Sunset Overdrive, Gears and Titanfall. Those would be fun, but not worth a $400 console. Not yet at least.

I say to each is own, I’m more of a Sony guy, while others are MS. No big deal. Lastly, to get back on topic. Keep in mind, if people think new games built on/for DX12 are going to be better or mind blowing different, sorry they won’t. Maybe a little bit better but not a big jump. It won’t make the cut outs in Forza 5 be fully detailed fans. JS, and if you think that DX12 will allow the X-box one to catch up to PS4 in the areas it’s lacking, think again as Sony will have ways to optimize it’s system as well and will always have the edge. Like last gen, MS had, and kept the edge. Plain and simple. I don’t know a ton about computer stuff, only enough to get me in trouble, lol. But I do know that newer, optimized software can’t make up for a lack in hardware. There’s no magic bullet for that, and that’s were Sony has the edge, this/current gen. Sorry MS, you built a weaker system. It’s ok, because you have a loyal fan base that will support it. Not trolling just shooting out some thoughts.

TSD

To be quite honest, even thought I support DX 12, to me, a huge graphics upgrade would be something like 4K and graphics that are 5 years into the future, so really this doesn’t surprise me.

malik

If u r smokin crack,..to each his own, but games at 1080p 60fps is being put in motion for both PC consoles as we text!!

jim moore2

That is the target for every game, I would bet, but the problem is, as they get farther into production, they realize there are things they have to trade off. Both companies clearly expected to be able to handle 1080p/60fps no problem this gen. But the issue is the goalposts moved since then. For example, if the gaming community was content with PS2/Xbox(1) era blocky 3d figures, we’d have every game running at 1080p/60fps. Probably even higher frame rates would be easily achievable. But no one wants to look at square armed characters against a foggy backdrop at 60fps. Each gen, polygon counts go up, draw distances get farther, and textures get more realistic, pushing what the consoles can do. More particles, etc. So then decisions end up being made…give up particles or give up framerate. Almost always, framerate or resolution is conceded to add additional effects.

That’s why when you take a multiplat that is designed with one set of specs, the framerate and/or resolution ends up better on PS4, because all things being equal in a given game, PS4 as more horsepower to render with.

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